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	<title>Comments for Piedmonthudson's Weblog</title>
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	<link>http://piedmonthudson.wordpress.com</link>
	<description>Current thoughts on Financial Planning and Investing</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Wed, 25 Nov 2009 05:53:35 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>Comment on Information Overload by piedmonthudson</title>
		<link>http://piedmonthudson.wordpress.com/2009/10/24/information-overload/#comment-124</link>
		<dc:creator>piedmonthudson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Nov 2009 05:53:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://piedmonthudson.wordpress.com/?p=82#comment-124</guid>
		<description>Your calculation is correct.  I left out the $40,000 in payments against principal.  So that means the home owner has paid out $27,000 more than the renter after 18 years, as you stated.

After 18 years, the home owner has a net equity position in his house of $160,000 and has paid $135,000 to establish that, for a net position of +$25,000.  He started with $20,000 down, so the total improvement in equity for 18 years of home ownership is only $5,000.

The renter has paid over 18 years $27,000 less than the home owner, or an average of $1,500 per year.  If that were invested with an average annual return (after-tax) of 4%, the total after 18 years would be $27,780.  If the renter had invested the $20,000 that would have been the down payment at 4% (again after-tax) for 18 years, that would grow to $40,000.  This means the renter would have an equity position after 18 years of $67,780 or a gain of $47,780 on the original $20,000.  This is more than 9x the equity position gain of the home owner.

In this example, as corrected here, the renter is not slightly ahead, he (she) is way ahead.  Other examples would yield different results.  In making your own case study you must be aware of your own savings discipline.  Many people who have enough discipline to make mortgage payments do not have the discipline to manage more liquid investments wisely and to make regular savings payments.

Finally, stability of income is another consideration.  As many have found out in the past couple of years, it is possible to go from what appears to be secure employment to an extended period of unemployment in just a few months.  Not having a mortgage makes adjustment ot extended unemployment more manageable.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Your calculation is correct.  I left out the $40,000 in payments against principal.  So that means the home owner has paid out $27,000 more than the renter after 18 years, as you stated.</p>
<p>After 18 years, the home owner has a net equity position in his house of $160,000 and has paid $135,000 to establish that, for a net position of +$25,000.  He started with $20,000 down, so the total improvement in equity for 18 years of home ownership is only $5,000.</p>
<p>The renter has paid over 18 years $27,000 less than the home owner, or an average of $1,500 per year.  If that were invested with an average annual return (after-tax) of 4%, the total after 18 years would be $27,780.  If the renter had invested the $20,000 that would have been the down payment at 4% (again after-tax) for 18 years, that would grow to $40,000.  This means the renter would have an equity position after 18 years of $67,780 or a gain of $47,780 on the original $20,000.  This is more than 9x the equity position gain of the home owner.</p>
<p>In this example, as corrected here, the renter is not slightly ahead, he (she) is way ahead.  Other examples would yield different results.  In making your own case study you must be aware of your own savings discipline.  Many people who have enough discipline to make mortgage payments do not have the discipline to manage more liquid investments wisely and to make regular savings payments.</p>
<p>Finally, stability of income is another consideration.  As many have found out in the past couple of years, it is possible to go from what appears to be secure employment to an extended period of unemployment in just a few months.  Not having a mortgage makes adjustment ot extended unemployment more manageable.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Information Overload by steve</title>
		<link>http://piedmonthudson.wordpress.com/2009/10/24/information-overload/#comment-123</link>
		<dc:creator>steve</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 25 Nov 2009 05:04:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://piedmonthudson.wordpress.com/?p=82#comment-123</guid>
		<description>Hi John, I was having a look at what was better renting or owning a house and I came across your analysis.

==============================================

You raise the savings issue as an advantage of owning. It is a forced savings plan for many who would not otherwise save. Of course, it is a savings plan with a negative return for those who bought in the last 5-6 years. But many who have owned their home for 10-20 years have a good return on their down payment at current prices, even taking carrying costs (insurance, maintenance, property taxes and mortgage interest) into account.

A hypothetical sample: House purchased in 1990 for $100,000 with $20,000 down and worth $200,000 today. Assume property taxes at 1% of market value, homeowners insurance and maintenance costs of 1% of purchase price, and accumulated total mortage interest of $50,000. The property taxes and mortgage interest are assumed to included savings from itemized income tax deductions. Also assume equivalent rent over this period averaged $500 per month.

The 18 year totals: $27,000 property taxes, $18,000 HO and maintenance, and mortgage interest $50,000 are expenses. This totals $95,000.

The savings in rent over 18 years is $108,000. Thus we have spent $95,000 and saved $108,000, or a net plus of $7,000.

Let&#039;s assume the buyer took out a 30 year mortgage and has not tapped home equity. The current principal due is around $40,000. Thus the current equity position is $7,000 plus $160,000. Therefore, the original $20,000 could be considered to have a value of $167,000. This is an internal rate of return (annual average) of 12.5%. If home values drop another 20%, the average internal rate of return drops to 10.8% per year. These rates of return are essentially free of income tax.

Now let&#039;s look at how the renter could get to the same net equity position ($167,000). For calculation simplicity, let&#039;s assume that the $95,000 spent on the trappings of home ownership was saved in equal installments for the 18 years, or approximately $5,280 per year. We start with an investment of $20,000 and add $5,280 per year. We will have $167,000 after 18 years if the after-tax internal rate of return is approximately 4% a year. If the after-tax return averages 5% a year, the renter has approximately $200,000. This is close to the average annual rate of return for the S5P 500 (including dividends) for all but the top tax brackets.

So the renter has a slight advanyage over the home owner if the money saved by renting is invested.

As I pointed out in a preceding comment, most do not save available cash, but spend it. You said: &quot;With a house of your own, you are forced to save, and that is a good thing.&quot; For many people, I agree.

But don&#039;t forget timing. The savings vs. renting calculations for people who bought 2004-2007 will not favor the buyers in any way for many, many years. 

==============================================

I&#039;m a little confused by the numbers though.  Specifically you state that on a 30 year mortgage the principle remaining is around $40,000. So doesn&#039;t that mean the home owner has payed around $40,000 in principle of the $100,000 loan and $50,000 in interest? 

So wouldn&#039;t that mean over the 18 year period the homeowner has actually payed $95,000 (costs + interest) + $40,000 (principle) = $135,000 and the renter has payed $108,000. 

Thus wouldn&#039;t the renter have had an extra $27,000 that they could have saved?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi John, I was having a look at what was better renting or owning a house and I came across your analysis.</p>
<p>==============================================</p>
<p>You raise the savings issue as an advantage of owning. It is a forced savings plan for many who would not otherwise save. Of course, it is a savings plan with a negative return for those who bought in the last 5-6 years. But many who have owned their home for 10-20 years have a good return on their down payment at current prices, even taking carrying costs (insurance, maintenance, property taxes and mortgage interest) into account.</p>
<p>A hypothetical sample: House purchased in 1990 for $100,000 with $20,000 down and worth $200,000 today. Assume property taxes at 1% of market value, homeowners insurance and maintenance costs of 1% of purchase price, and accumulated total mortage interest of $50,000. The property taxes and mortgage interest are assumed to included savings from itemized income tax deductions. Also assume equivalent rent over this period averaged $500 per month.</p>
<p>The 18 year totals: $27,000 property taxes, $18,000 HO and maintenance, and mortgage interest $50,000 are expenses. This totals $95,000.</p>
<p>The savings in rent over 18 years is $108,000. Thus we have spent $95,000 and saved $108,000, or a net plus of $7,000.</p>
<p>Let&#8217;s assume the buyer took out a 30 year mortgage and has not tapped home equity. The current principal due is around $40,000. Thus the current equity position is $7,000 plus $160,000. Therefore, the original $20,000 could be considered to have a value of $167,000. This is an internal rate of return (annual average) of 12.5%. If home values drop another 20%, the average internal rate of return drops to 10.8% per year. These rates of return are essentially free of income tax.</p>
<p>Now let&#8217;s look at how the renter could get to the same net equity position ($167,000). For calculation simplicity, let&#8217;s assume that the $95,000 spent on the trappings of home ownership was saved in equal installments for the 18 years, or approximately $5,280 per year. We start with an investment of $20,000 and add $5,280 per year. We will have $167,000 after 18 years if the after-tax internal rate of return is approximately 4% a year. If the after-tax return averages 5% a year, the renter has approximately $200,000. This is close to the average annual rate of return for the S5P 500 (including dividends) for all but the top tax brackets.</p>
<p>So the renter has a slight advanyage over the home owner if the money saved by renting is invested.</p>
<p>As I pointed out in a preceding comment, most do not save available cash, but spend it. You said: &#8220;With a house of your own, you are forced to save, and that is a good thing.&#8221; For many people, I agree.</p>
<p>But don&#8217;t forget timing. The savings vs. renting calculations for people who bought 2004-2007 will not favor the buyers in any way for many, many years. </p>
<p>==============================================</p>
<p>I&#8217;m a little confused by the numbers though.  Specifically you state that on a 30 year mortgage the principle remaining is around $40,000. So doesn&#8217;t that mean the home owner has payed around $40,000 in principle of the $100,000 loan and $50,000 in interest? </p>
<p>So wouldn&#8217;t that mean over the 18 year period the homeowner has actually payed $95,000 (costs + interest) + $40,000 (principle) = $135,000 and the renter has payed $108,000. </p>
<p>Thus wouldn&#8217;t the renter have had an extra $27,000 that they could have saved?</p>
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		<title>Comment on About by piedmonthudson</title>
		<link>http://piedmonthudson.wordpress.com/about/#comment-117</link>
		<dc:creator>piedmonthudson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 21 Nov 2009 15:49:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-117</guid>
		<description>Ames - - -

The two trades you refer to are:

GLL from 6/5/09 to 7/20/09  0.00% return
SKF from 5/26/09 to 7/15/09  - 5.4% return

Successful trades:

QLD from 5/26/09 to 9/11/09  +40.5%
XLV from 5/26/09 to 9/11/09  +13.3%
DIG from 10/6/09 to 10/26/09  +10.0%
LQD from 5/26/09 to 8/6/09  +7.7%
TLT from 5/26/09 to 9/11/09  +6.3%

Currently open:

SLV from 9/25/09 (through 11/20)  +15.5%

All of these and all other contrarian trading ideas are documented regularly in articles at TheStreet.com.  You can access them at http://www.thestreet.com/author/1145074/john-lounsbury/all.html 

The risk management processes used to control losses are spelled out in detail in the articles on contrarian portfolios.

If you have an interest in this process please follow my regularly published articles at TheStreet.com</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ames &#8211; - -</p>
<p>The two trades you refer to are:</p>
<p>GLL from 6/5/09 to 7/20/09  0.00% return<br />
SKF from 5/26/09 to 7/15/09  &#8211; 5.4% return</p>
<p>Successful trades:</p>
<p>QLD from 5/26/09 to 9/11/09  +40.5%<br />
XLV from 5/26/09 to 9/11/09  +13.3%<br />
DIG from 10/6/09 to 10/26/09  +10.0%<br />
LQD from 5/26/09 to 8/6/09  +7.7%<br />
TLT from 5/26/09 to 9/11/09  +6.3%</p>
<p>Currently open:</p>
<p>SLV from 9/25/09 (through 11/20)  +15.5%</p>
<p>All of these and all other contrarian trading ideas are documented regularly in articles at TheStreet.com.  You can access them at <a href="http://www.thestreet.com/author/1145074/john-lounsbury/all.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.thestreet.com/author/1145074/john-lounsbury/all.html</a> </p>
<p>The risk management processes used to control losses are spelled out in detail in the articles on contrarian portfolios.</p>
<p>If you have an interest in this process please follow my regularly published articles at TheStreet.com</p>
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		<title>Comment on About by Ames Tiedeman</title>
		<link>http://piedmonthudson.wordpress.com/about/#comment-116</link>
		<dc:creator>Ames Tiedeman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 21 Nov 2009 13:53:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-116</guid>
		<description>It was May 26, 2009, not 2008!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It was May 26, 2009, not 2008!</p>
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		<title>Comment on About by Ames Tiedeman</title>
		<link>http://piedmonthudson.wordpress.com/about/#comment-115</link>
		<dc:creator>Ames Tiedeman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 21 Nov 2009 13:52:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-115</guid>
		<description>What have you been right about? On May 26, 2008 you said:

1. Sell Gold
2. Sell Financials

You were dead wrong.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What have you been right about? On May 26, 2008 you said:</p>
<p>1. Sell Gold<br />
2. Sell Financials</p>
<p>You were dead wrong.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Where Are We In the Stock Market Cycle? by Evan Lipstein</title>
		<link>http://piedmonthudson.wordpress.com/2008/10/09/where-are-we-in-the-stock-market-cycle/#comment-110</link>
		<dc:creator>Evan Lipstein</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Nov 2009 21:38:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://piedmonthudson.wordpress.com/?p=34#comment-110</guid>
		<description>Asia Coal Catalyst Company is a Clean Coal Combustion Catalyst company engaged in the worldwide development, commercialization and application of state-of-the-art proprietary technologies for air pollution control. Asia Coal Catalyst Company has installations on over 200 units worldwide, where coal, fuel oil, natural gas, wood and other solid fuels are utilized.
The Companyâ€™s CC-88 technology revolves around the unique application of a proprietary Clean Coal Combustion Catalyst that improves the efficiency, reliability, fuel flexibility and environmental status of combustion units by controlling slagging, fouling, corrosion, opacity and acid plume, as well as the formation of sulfur trioxide, ammonium bisulfate, particulate matter (PM2.5), carbon dioxide and NOx. This technology, in the form of CC-88 program has been applied to over more than 200 combustion units burning a wide variety of fuels including coal, heavy oil, biomass, and municipal waste. A breakdown of the nature of these customer units is posted on the Companyâ€™s website.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Asia Coal Catalyst Company is a Clean Coal Combustion Catalyst company engaged in the worldwide development, commercialization and application of state-of-the-art proprietary technologies for air pollution control. Asia Coal Catalyst Company has installations on over 200 units worldwide, where coal, fuel oil, natural gas, wood and other solid fuels are utilized.<br />
The Companyâ€™s CC-88 technology revolves around the unique application of a proprietary Clean Coal Combustion Catalyst that improves the efficiency, reliability, fuel flexibility and environmental status of combustion units by controlling slagging, fouling, corrosion, opacity and acid plume, as well as the formation of sulfur trioxide, ammonium bisulfate, particulate matter (PM2.5), carbon dioxide and NOx. This technology, in the form of CC-88 program has been applied to over more than 200 combustion units burning a wide variety of fuels including coal, heavy oil, biomass, and municipal waste. A breakdown of the nature of these customer units is posted on the Companyâ€™s website.</p>
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		<title>Comment on About by Stock Market</title>
		<link>http://piedmonthudson.wordpress.com/about/#comment-107</link>
		<dc:creator>Stock Market</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Oct 2009 04:04:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-107</guid>
		<description>Great site, I will be checking back for any new articles and linking back to you from my site.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great site, I will be checking back for any new articles and linking back to you from my site.</p>
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		<title>Comment on The Seduction of America by Kelli Garner</title>
		<link>http://piedmonthudson.wordpress.com/2009/09/06/httpseekingalpha-comarticle131580-the-seduction-of-america/#comment-103</link>
		<dc:creator>Kelli Garner</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 30 Sep 2009 14:19:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://piedmonthudson.wordpress.com/?p=65#comment-103</guid>
		<description>Really nice posts.  I will be checking back here regularly.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Really nice posts.  I will be checking back here regularly.</p>
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		<title>Comment on About by David Gold</title>
		<link>http://piedmonthudson.wordpress.com/about/#comment-101</link>
		<dc:creator>David Gold</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 28 Sep 2009 09:31:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">#comment-101</guid>
		<description></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I Don’t Usually Reply to Posts But I Will in this Case! Of Course, What a Great Site and Informative Post, I Always Wanted to Write in My Site Something Like That. Thank You!  &#8230;Please Take a Minute to Visit My Website as Well: <a href="http://www.snurl.com/stockassault" rel="nofollow">http://www.snurl.com/stockassault</a></p>
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		<title>Comment on The Seduction of America by Tony Brown</title>
		<link>http://piedmonthudson.wordpress.com/2009/09/06/httpseekingalpha-comarticle131580-the-seduction-of-america/#comment-98</link>
		<dc:creator>Tony Brown</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 Sep 2009 00:33:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://piedmonthudson.wordpress.com/?p=65#comment-98</guid>
		<description>I don&#039;t know If I said it already but ...Hey good stuff...keep up the good work! :) I read a lot of blogs on a daily basis and for the most part, people lack substance but, I just wanted to make a quick comment to say I&#039;m glad I found your blog.  Thanks,)

A definite great read..Tony Brown</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t know If I said it already but &#8230;Hey good stuff&#8230;keep up the good work! <img src='http://s.wordpress.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' />  I read a lot of blogs on a daily basis and for the most part, people lack substance but, I just wanted to make a quick comment to say I&#8217;m glad I found your blog.  Thanks,)</p>
<p>A definite great read..Tony Brown</p>
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